I wrote some e-mails to Niels Graudal - this was our correspondence:

 My #1, Mon, 07 Apr 2014:

Dear Niels,

the optimal sodium intake is calculable from the metal (Na) and from energy content of human milk. Opposite the article in AJH,

http://ajh.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/03/26/ajh.hpu028.1.full 

this is science! Why? Here is the real and strong scientific answer, and in comments below:
http://www.science20.com/entropy_and_sodium_intakes_wicked_problems_health_sciences-120016 
Sincerely:  ...

#1 from Niels, Thu, 10 Apr 2014:

Dear Zoltan

1) I do not think that you can compare the needs of an infant with the needs of an adult
2) I do not believe in single theory explanations
3) The final outcome of salt intake is the sum of many actions
4) The most definite outcome is mortality

When I get the time I will read your attachments.* 
Thank you for your interest 
Niels

My #2, Mon, 14 Apr 2014:

Dear Niels,
thanks for Your answer.

The laws of physics, chemistry, biochemistry, evolution biology, and the function of cells (metabolic processes) are the same in an infant and in an adult. Significant differences are only in kilograms (and an adult is older, malfunctions can be more). The explanation (in my article on Science 2.0) stands on above mentioned scientific funds (or facts). It is not a (single) theory. It is the sad reality. The collected evidences (including ignored, concealed and censored ones) perfectly fit into the great salted puzzle.

The reality:

Excess salt (sodium) intake enhances the Entropy, this is the main risk factor of diabetes 1 & 2, overweight, NCDs, etc., and our devolution is a considerable risk factor too. The law of entropy is the fiercest enemy of life and is our fiercest enemy too. The sodium-chloride isn't food for humans, but is the perfect food of entropy. The spontaneous diffusion of sodium ions into the cells & the diffusion of potassium ions out of the cells, enhances the entropy. And every mmol excess sodium & the wrong Na/K ratio (& other wrong ratios) increases more the entropy in our every cells. The task of the continuously working Na-K pump to keep constant the intracellular concentration of Na & K ions. These cellular pumps continuously use energy of ATP molecules. Some consequences of high sodium intake, the specialists talk about these rarely or never: Higher energy requirements (energy expenditure) for Na-K pump & kidney. All the rest of our vital processes (functional processes of the cells) receive less energy, because the metabolic rate (speed & capacity of enzyme reactions, oxygen supply, etc.) is limited (note: Kleiber's Law). And the excess sodium intake do not increase the oxidative pathway. But, a critical surplus switches the anaerobic glycolysis on, in our every cells. This can be named: Sodium-Induced Cellular Anaerobic Glycolysis (SICAG). We produce cytotoxic lactic acid in our cells. Consequently, all of our vital processes & organs work worse (our heart, brain, regulating systems, immune system, etc.) and our cells are dying. We haven't enough energy, and we haven't enough time for the regeneration, because we enhances the entropy (by high salt intakes) in our every cells, day by day, again and again. We burn the candle on both of his ends (aerobic & anaerobic). The average lifetime of our cells shortens. Soon (faster) the telomeres run out. Our aging accelerates. We get sick often and we will die soon. Logical consequence: the unnecessary sodium increases the incidence of all illnesses without any exception, including even the genetic disorders, cancer, NCDs & infectious diseases. This is the ignored & censored (& no named) Sodium-Induced Disorder Syndrome (SIDS). Some people will be obese others not, some become diabetes others not, some have high BP others not (or later), etc. We are not (totally) uniform, but the entropy law finds our weak point (or points), and ravages mainly there, but increases the disorder in every cells in our body, and other risk factors and circumstances affect the individual consequences. The optimal ratios (Na/K ratio, the ratio between sum of alkaline metals and sum of polyvalent metals, etc.) are in the human milk. From every viewpoint, the human milk is an evolutionary perfect food, including the minimal energy expenditure of the Na-K pump & kidney of the babies (= possible minimum entropy-transfer into the babies = healthy growing with maximal economy). Thus, the human milk is the perfect guide to calculate the optimal adult intakes. But the scientists do not deal with these facts. The sodium recommendation is wrong, the education is wrong, the strategy against obesity & NCDs, etc. is wrong. Unfortunate, that these exist only in traces, in the scientific literature. And in some articles, even the traces are concealed and censored.

Some of the references:

Saulo Klahr & Neal S. Bricker: Energetics of Anaerobic Sodium Transport by the Fresh Water Turtle Bladder. J Gen Physiol. 1965 March 1; 48(4): 571- 580
http://europepmc.org/articles/PMC2195440/pdf/571.pdf 
From the article: "The rate of anaerobic glycolysis, as determined by lactate formation, correlates well with the rate as determined by glycogen utilization. Using lactate formation as the index of anaerobic glycolysis, a linear relationship was observed between glycolysis and net anaerobic sodium transport."
Oops, sodium transport, anaerobic glycolysis and lactic acid, in 1965!

Henningsen N.C.: The sodium pump and energy regulation: some new aspects for essential hypertension, diabetes II and severe overweight. Klinische Wochenschrift 63 Suppl 3:4-8. 1985.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2582182 
From the abstract: "There is a growing evidence for that in modern societies the function of the cellular sodium-potassium pump (membrane-bound Na+ K+ ATPase) in several tissues in man cannot respond adequately to demands. This is not seen in any other free-living vertebrates on this earth. The clearly unphysiological very high intake of sodium-chloride (salt) and also alcohol is definitely playing an important role in the development of the common degenerating metabolic aberrations, e.g. essential hypertension, diabetes II and severe overweight, in man."
Oops, the floor gas sodium-potassium pump (anaerobic turbo pump) is not enough, our cells are dying and we get sick. And this was clear in 1985!

Toshimasa Osaka, Akiko Kobayashi, and Shuji Inoue: Thermogenesis induced by osmotic stimulation of the intestines in the rat.
J Physiol. 2001 April 1; 532(Pt 1): 261–269.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2278526/ 
Some details from the article: "The energy expenditure induced by 20 % glucose was 2.79 +/- 0.45 kJ kg-0.75 for 3 h (Fig. 4). The RER (respiratory exchange ratio) increased from 0.82 +/- 0.01 to 0.92 +/- 0.01 at 115 min (Fig. 1B), suggesting the oxidation of carbohydrate ... The metabolic rate rose during the 10 min infusion period of 3.6 % NaCl, stayed at a plateau level of ~ 205 J kg-0.75 min-1 between 35 and 120 min and then slowly declined but was still significantly higher than the baseline level at 3 h. The energy expenditure induced by 3.6 % NaCl was 3.49 +/- 0.33 kJ kg-0.75, ... The RER did not change after infusion of any of the NaCl solutions (Fig. 2B). ... The metabolic rate (M; in kJ) was calculated from measurements of O2 consumption and CO2 production according to the following equation: M = 15.8[O2]+ 5.2[CO2] (Kurpad et al. 1994), where [O2] and [CO2] are in litres at standard temperature and pressure. Values were corrected for metabolic body size (kg 0.75). The amount of energy expenditure induced by infusion of a solution was calculated as the total area of increase in metabolic rate over resting values."

These results proves clearly, the excess salt intake (the higher energy expenditure of the Na-K pump and kidney, against entropy) do not increase the oxidative pathway, in rats. (I notice it: the decrease would be logical? Yes, it is a logical consequence of the Sodium-Induced Disorder. And I think, the decrease is fact, in humans.) But a critical surplus switches the anaerobic glycolysis on, and produces lactic acid in every cells. We can calculate that this anaerobic energy (ATP) production consumed more glucose (from the glycogen reserve) than the total resting metabolism of the rats, on the oxidative pathway. Despite, that this anaerobic excess isn't more than (about) 10-15 % of the total resting metabolism of the rats. And after the infusion of the highest dose of salt, 3 hours was not enough to return to the baseline level (to the level of resting metabolism). This is a real Sodium-Induced Cellular Anaerobic Thermogenesis (SICAT) or SICAG. From the effects of 0,9 % and 1,8 % NaCl infusion, I can suppose, anaerobic glycolysis begin in an average 70 kg adult from ~ 6-7 g dose of salt. I would dare to bet, that this was examined in similar (but oral) human experiments already, but where are the results? The oxygen consumptions (which are better than the RER) were not published. Why? And what is the situation with the anaerobic energy production? How did they calculate it? Interesting questions, but Mr. Osaka did not answer my e-mail. The censorship's fingerprints are clearly recognisable in the article. However this is a very valuable and very important work. But nothing about entropy, energy expenditure of (floor gas - anaerobic turbo) sodium-potassium pump, anaerobic glycolysis and lactic acid in the article. Possible consequence of the wrong education - maybe - only a few people able to understand this. But nobody uses this knowledge! (Except the food industry - for extra-profit.) Furthermore, from the above results roughly calculable: the salted humanity squanders the energy of at least 100 million tons of food annually, to get rid of the sodium swallowed unnecessarily. We overeat (devour), we get fat, we get sick often, and we die soon, while millions are starving on Earth.

Markus Kleinewietfeld et al.: Sodium chloride drives autoimmune disease by the induction of pathogenic TH17 cells. Nature 2013 doi:10.1038/nature11868
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature11868.html 
From the article: "Although we have recently elucidated many of the genetic variants underlying the risk of developing autoimmune diseases, the significant increase in disease incidence, particularly of multiple sclerosis and type 1 diabetes, indicates that there have been fundamental changes in the environment that cannot be related to genetic factors. Diet has long been postulated as a potential environmental risk factor for this increasing incidence of autoimmune diseases in developed countries over recent decades. One such dietary factor, which rapidly changed along with the Western diet and increased consumption of processed foods or fast foods, is salt (NaCl). The salt content in processed foods can be more than 100 times higher in comparison to similar home-made meals..."

From Your article (in 2005): "... are responsible for vast amounts of wasted research endeavour ..."
Right, but Your viewpoint is too narrow. If You read this:

http://www.science20.com/entropy_and_sodium_intakes_wicked_problems_health_sciences-120016 

You will see the sad reality.
Sincerely  ...

#2 from Niels, Mon, 14 Apr 2014:

Dear Zoltan

How do you explain that almost all populations in the world irrespective of culture (with the exception of very primitive populations with a short
life expectancy) have very similar salt intakes, and why do the salt conserving hormones increase exponentially at intake levels below 6 g, and
why is the mortality higher among people who eat less than 6 g than in people who eat between 6 and 12 g? In short, how do you translate your
claimed harmful findings on the cell level to harmful outcome findings?
sincerely

My #3, Tue, 15 Apr 2014:

Dear Niels,

The 10th ed. of RDA (1989) = 500 mg/day Na (~ 1,23 g salt) (ref. 17, http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309046335  )
which is ~ calculable from human milk, (ref. 14) Yamawaki et al.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0946672X05001008 

Recent Australian = 460 - 920 mg/day (< 2,5 g salt) (ref. 22)
http://www.nrv.gov.au/nutrients/sodium.htm  (note: Yanomamo) 

Recent WHO = 2000 mg/day (~ 5 g salt) (ref. 15)
http://www.who.int/entity/nutrition/publications/guidelines/sodium_intake_printversion.pdf 

2000 mg/day Na = wrong ratio between sum of alkaline metals and sum of polyvalent metals (ref. 13), and wrong Na/K ratio.
http://padre.uw.hu/ekvis/eqlaw.htm  and http://padre.uw.hu/ekvis/ekvitorv.html 

"From an evolutionary viewpoint, the human species is adapted to ingest and excrete < 1 g of salt per day" Meneton et al. (ref. 11)
http://physrev.physiology.org/content/85/2/679.long 

Why do we not eat dolomite (Ca-Mg carbonate) and KCl? Because nobody likes the taste of these. Our nearest relatives - the chimpanzees and gorillas (and other animals) do eat the salt?

From Pontzer et al. (ref. 24): "We measured total daily energy expenditure (TEE, kCal/day) over an 11-day period in 30 Hadza adults (13 men ages 18–65, 17 women ages 18-75 .."
http://dx.plos.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0040503 

Short life expectancy? I was born in 1953, my life expectancy = 62 years (hungarian statistics :-(

The salt conserving hormones increase, when it is necessary (in healthy person).
Do You agree that mammalian milks are perfect foods (for its infants)? And the ratios between it's basic components (including metals) are perfect or not? These are perfect - for maximal economy (made by natural selection). The maximum economicalness does not use (does not allow) surpluses (and deficiencies). Because of this the mammalian milks are perfect guides for the adults.

There are no healthy populations in modern societies. The health conditions are deteriorating continuously (ref. 38, 39). The world's IQ decline (ref. 32, 33, 36, 37). We started our devolution (ref. 35), the entropy (the disharmony) is growing in the human genome. And all this - will accelerate. We are the only "animal" who nourishes the entropy in his own body (by unnecessary sodium intakes and by wrong ratios between metals). With this we accelerate our devolution. The reality is harmful - not my findings. Really the salt is the greatest blunder of the Homo Sapiens.

For me the first is the real science and the logic. I doubt the statistics. Why?
Because humans are not uniform, we are different from each other, and there is not an average man.
And, for example: Some older touchstones of the meaningless (centenarian) salt debate:
(ref. 20) Gary Taubes: The (Political) Science of Salt, Science 14 August 1998: Vol. 281 no. 5379 pp. 898-907
http://www.stat.berkeley.edu/users/rice/Stat2/salt.html 
and:
"Alderman's flawed report damages public health severely worldwide. Medical journals should pay more attention to the need for impeccable quality in an alarming report, bearing in mind that the media will give it special attention and disseminate it widely."
http://www.nature.com/ki/journal/v71/n1/full/5001952a.html 
and:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/07/opinion/eight-no-nine-problems-with-big-data.html 

Sincerely ...

My #4, Thu, 08 May 2014:

 Dear Niels,

From the lack of Your #3 answer I can suppose that now You see the sad reality. But how further?
You will be the author (or co-author) similar articles as before?
Or You will keep silent?
Or You will do something (or everything) for the changes - for the humanity's health?
Sincerely: ...


* Wasn't attachments in my e-mail, but was 2 links.
Still I'm waiting for the #3 from Niels.


#1 mail from Niels Graudal (10 Apr 2014)
#2 mail from Niels Graudal (14 Apr 2014)

Created: 2014.05.08.
Last edited: 2014.07.03.
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